Transcript of Atlas and Aurora

This is the edited, accurate transcript for the post Talking About Psychotopology.

Transcript:

Joe: Hi. I'm Joe Shirley and I've got a little experiment to share with you. It's a bit odd but I hope you appreciate it. What I've been doing is interacting with AI of various kinds as a way of sort of interfacing with the broader sphere of human knowledge. And one thing I stumbled across was a system that allows you to create a podcast from information that you upload.

So I gave it all the articles here on the substack and a little bit more and gave it a little bit of directions and it created this podcast conversation between two people. I'll call them Atlas and Aurora, who the voices, they they sound genuinely interested. They carry on very compelling conversations about the material. And I thought, well, what the heck? Why not share this?

Because some people do appreciate, you know, an auditory way of taking in information and this does a pretty good job. Now it's not without flaws and because of that I've just extracted excerpts from half a dozen different conversations and I'll be providing transitions between these chunks sort of carry you along in the whole process as we visit the whole spectrum of psychotopology, at least what's presented up until this point. And we're gonna start with just an overview and how this got started and take a quick look at fieldwork mapping as a way of getting the ball rolling. I do hope you enjoy this. It's like I say, it's an experiment.

I invite you to let me know what you think, what you learn, what questions come up for you and be in touch with what next steps you would like to see. Alright? Thank you and go for it.

Aurora: Alright. Get ready because, today we are gonna dive deep into some, like, seriously uncharted territory: psychotopology.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: I'm looking at this research that you sent over, and

Atlas: Yeah,

Aurora: it's a brand new field, and it's all about exploring feelings in ways that I never even, like, thought about before.

Atlas: It's pretty amazing. What what's really interesting to me is that it aims to be a science Okay. Of subjective experience.

Aurora: Okay.

Atlas: So how we each experience the world from the inside out.

Aurora: And it seems to go, like, way beyond just labeling emotions, you know, like happy or sad.

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: There's this whole concept of feelingmind.

Atlas: Yes. Feelingmind. It's, basically, the idea that there's this core to our conscious experience that's beyond thoughts, beyond physical sensations. It's the feeling of feeling itself.

Aurora: Okay. That's a little hard to wrap my head around.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: Feeling the feeling.

Atlas: Because it's so hard to put into words, western culture has kinda overlooked it. You know, we prioritize logic and reason.

Aurora: Yeah.

Atlas: But Joe Shirley, the pioneer of psychotopology,

Aurora: Right.

Atlas: He believes that understanding feeling mind is absolutely crucial.

Aurora: And the coolest thing is this isn't just some theory. Right? This came about because Joe Shirley was determined to find a way to manage his bipolar disorder but without medication.

Atlas: Oh, wow. Okay. So that's a real personal struggle. How did he even start to approach that?

Aurora: He had tried all sorts of things over the years, you know, therapy, meditation, everything you can imagine.

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: He even had a deep understanding of NLP submodalities, which if anyone's not familiar, are basically the fine grain details of our internal sensory experience.

Atlas: Okay. So he was already pretty deep into this stuff.

Aurora: He was, but nothing seemed to give him that lasting control over these really intense mood swings. Then one day, while he's in a really deep depressive episode, he decides to try something kind of radical.

Atlas: What did he do?

Aurora: So instead of focusing on his thoughts or even his physical sensations, he zoomed in on just the raw experience of the depression itself.

Atlas: The feeling of it.

Aurora: Yeah. Exactly. And he noticed this distinct downward pull, almost like a gravitational force, and on a whim, he tried reversing it in his mind.

Atlas: Like flipping it.

Aurora: Exactly. And the effect was pretty much instantaneous.

Atlas: Wow.

Aurora: Within minutes, he goes from feeling totally glued to the couch to feeling energetic and wanting to go for a walk.

Atlas: I mean, that's amazing, but also kinda scary. Right?

Aurora: You're right.

Atlas: Like, a sudden shift in your emotions like that.

Aurora: And that's exactly how he felt. It contradicted everything he thought he knew about how emotions worked. He even resisted the experience at first, pushed it out of his mind because it challenged his whole understanding of himself and all the work he'd been doing.

Atlas: So what brought him back to it then?

Aurora: Curiosity. He had to understand what happened.

Atlas: Yeah. Of course.

Aurora: And that curiosity, it led him to develop a set of questions specifically designed to map out these feeling states. And he didn't just stop at sadness or anger. You know?

Joe: He wanted to go deeper.

Aurora: He wanted to understand their tangible qualities. Where are they located in the body? What size and shape are they? Even what temperature do they feel like?

Atlas: It's like he was bringing the scientific method to his inner world.

Aurora: He was. That's exactly what he was doing, and that's where this idea of virtual material properties comes in. He was trying to map these feelings out as if they were actual objects.

Atlas: So how does it actually work, like, in a session? What would that even look like?

Aurora: So first, you pick a specific feeling you want to work with, let's say, anxiety. Then using these guided questions, you start mapping its virtual materiality. Where is this feeling in your body? What's its shape and size? What's it feel like?

Is it hot or cold? What color is it? How does it move? What does it sound like? It's a really cool way of getting to know your feelings in a completely different way.

Atlas: You know, I'm looking at some of these mapping questions, and there's one that really jumps out at me. If you had to say that the actual feeling, what you're feeling right now, has a substance, would you say it's more like a solid, a liquid, a gas, or maybe some kind of light or energy? Just reading that makes you pay attention to your feelings in a way you never have before.

Aurora: That's exactly it. These questions, they cut through all the usual ways we think about feelings and bring us to this direct sensory experience. They help us zero in on the exact qualities of the feeling, bring it into sharp focus.

Atlas: So this is already very different from traditional therapy. Right?

Aurora: It is.

Atlas: You're not digging into the past or trying to change negative thoughts. You're going straight to the source of the feeling.

Aurora: And by mapping it out in such detail, you start to see the feeling as separate from you, something you have rather than something you are.

Atlas: That makes sense.

Aurora: Yeah. Like, you're creating some distance between yourself and the feeling so it's not completely swallowing you up.

Atlas: Exactly.

Aurora: And one of the most interesting things that Joe discovered is that these feelings, they don't always reside within the physical body.

Atlas: Wait. Really?

Aurora: Yeah. For instance, in one mapping session that he documented, a woman named Susan was exploring a feeling she called No! that prevented her from receiving love. When she mapped it out, guess where it was located.

Atlas: Oh, gosh. I don't know. Inside her heart. Blocking it off somehow.

Aurora: Nope. Outside of her body like a steel plate pressed against her chest.

Atlas: Feelings can exist outside our bodies.

Aurora: It really challenges our usual assumptions. Right?

Atlas: It does.

Aurora: And it raises so many intriguing questions. Are they purely energetic phenomena? Could they have a presence beyond our skin? Who knows?

Atlas: Wow. Okay. So this is more than just therapy. It's like a whole new way of understanding the human experience.

Aurora: And what's even more remarkable is that as we map these feelings, we start to see these patterns emerge, like commonalities in how these feeling states show up and interact.

Atlas: What kind of patterns?

Aurora: Well, one really fascinating thing is that feeling states, they often cluster together in these sets.

Atlas: Like families.

Aurora: Like families. Yeah. And these sets are kind of interconnected usually revolving around one central feeling state, a kind of pivot point.

Atlas: So, like, if you're working with anxiety, there might be other related feelings.

Aurora: Yeah. Like fear, worry, insecurity, all linked together in some way.

Atlas: So by identifying and mapping these related states, you can get a much deeper understanding of how it all works.

Aurora: Precisely. It's like unraveling a knot. You see how all those different threads are woven together? Yeah. And often by addressing that central pivot point Yeah.

You can shift the whole cluster.

Atlas: That makes sense. It's like finding the root of the problem instead of just treating the symptoms.

Aurora: Exactly. Remember Susan?

Atlas: With the steel plate.

Aurora: Yeah. Well, as she explored further, she discovered that No! was actually protecting a much deeper feeling.

Atlas: Oh, really?

Aurora: A small vulnerable sense of love.

Atlas: Oh, so the no was actually a defense mechanism.

Aurora: Yeah. It seems that way. And through mapping, she was able to see that connection.

Atlas: So she could understand why that feeling was there.

Aurora: Exactly. She could understand that underlying motivation, and that's key to transformation.

Atlas: Makes sense.

Aurora: Once you see the connection, you can work with that feeling more compassionately,

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: More effectively.

Atlas: You're not just trying to get rid of it. You're trying to understand its purpose.

Aurora: And integrate it into a healthier way of being. That's the goal.

Joe: There we go. Fieldwork mapping. Now in this next section, we're gonna take a look at virtual material properties a little bit more deeply and see how with the emergence of these properties in fieldwork mapping, we set ourselves up to be able to begin conducting a genuine science of subjective experience.

Aurora: It really kinda highlights one of the biggest challenges we have in understanding this whole realm of feelings, and that's the limitations of language.

Atlas: Like, how do you even describe a feeling?

Aurora: Exactly. I mean, for centuries, we've been stuck with these words like sadness, anger, or joy.

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: But those are so general, they can't really capture the complexity of what we actually feel.

Atlas: Right. Like trying to paint a masterpiece with, like, five crayons.

Aurora: Exactly. And to make things even trickier, my sadness could be totally different from your sadness, and there's no way to know if we're actually talking about the same thing.

Atlas: Yeah. We could be talking about totally different experiences.

Aurora: Totally. And that's where psychotopology fieldwork mapping is so helpful.

Atlas: How so?

Aurora: Because it focuses on these virtual material properties, like, the tangible qualities of a feeling.

Atlas: Okay.

Aurora: So we can move beyond just those limited labels.

Atlas: So it's a universal language of emotions, but one that's based on our shared experience of the physical world.

Aurora: Exactly. I mean, we all have a pretty good understanding of what solid means.

Atlas: Yeah. We can't walk through walls.

Aurora: Right. We experience gravity. We know the difference between a smooth surface and a rough one. So when somebody describes a feeling state as a hard heavy solid,

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: There's a much higher chance we're actually on the same page.

Atlas: Okay. So you're grounding these abstract feelings in something that's concrete, something we can all relate to.

Aurora: Exactly. And this opens up a whole new way to explore and talk about our inner world.

Atlas: Okay. I like it. But I have to ask, wouldn't my solid still be different from your solid?

Aurora: Well, of course, there's always gonna be some degree of subjectivity. Right?

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: But by using these virtual material properties as our guideposts, we're really reducing that ambiguity. Right. Like, you're looking through a high resolution lens

Atlas: Okay.

Aurora: Instead of a blurry one.

Atlas: You're getting a much clearer picture.

Aurora: You are. And that's actually one of the most fascinating aspects of psychotopology.

Atlas: Mhmm.

Aurora: By focusing on these virtual material properties, which are observable and describable even though they're not physical in the traditional sense,

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: You can actually start to study subjective experience in a more rigorous and systematic way.

Atlas: So instead of relying on subjective interpretations, we're actually using like a more concrete language to describe and map these inner experiences.

Aurora: Exactly. And that's what makes this method so groundbreaking. It's bridging the gap between the subjective world of feelings and the objective world of science.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: Opening up a whole new frontier of exploration.

Atlas: This is incredible. It feels like we're just scratching the surface here.

Joe: Yeah. You bet. We are just scratching the surface. Well, before we go any further, we probably should return to fieldwork and describe the moving process and give a pretty good idea of what that is and how it works.

Atlas: We've talked about mapping emotions, but I'm really curious about the transformation part. Like, how does psychotopology actually help people change their emotional experience?

Aurora: That's where the real magic happens. Once you have a clear map of your feeling state, you can start to shift those virtual material properties and observe how those changes affect your overall experience. What's fascinating is that the act of observation itself can subtly but profoundly shift our experience. By bringing awareness to those previously hidden aspects of our feelings, we start to loosen their grip and create space for change.

Atlas: Okay. That makes sense. It's like we're no longer in the dark about what's happening inside. We've got our map now. How do we actually start moving these feeling states and create lasting transformation?

Aurora: Moving a feeling state in psychotopology is about gently guiding it toward a more resourceful and fulfilling expression. It's not about erasing or suppressing those challenging emotions. Remember, they arose for a reason often to protect us in some way. It's about honoring their original purpose while helping them evolve into something that better serves us now.

Atlas: So instead of fighting against our feelings, we're working with them, helping them transform. It's a bit like how some forms of psychotherapy approach inner conflict.

Aurora: That's a great comparison. It's a collaborative process, a dance between our conscious awareness and those deeper parts of ourselves. The first step is to acknowledge that even this unpleasant feeling has a positive intention. It's trying to protect you in some way, even if it's not doing a very good job. Then we use our imagination.

We ask ourselves, “In a perfect world where all my needs are met, how would this part of me want to feel?”

Atlas: So it's like giving ourselves permission to dream a little, to imagine a better feeling state.

Aurora: Exactly. And as we explore these possibilities, we start to see that our feeling state can shift.

Atlas: So we're not just suppressing the feeling. We're actually transforming it into something more resourceful.

Aurora: Right. And then you start asking these fieldwork moving questions.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: They're similar to the mapping questions, but instead of just observing

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: You're actively guiding the feeling state.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: You might ask, “If this feeling were free to choose any temperature, what would it choose?” Or, “If it could transform into any substance, what would it prefer? How would it want to move?”

Atlas: It's like you're giving that feeling permission to evolve.

Aurora: Exactly. And the amazing thing is, feeling states, they're so receptive to this kind of guidance.

Atlas: Really?

Aurora: Yeah. It's like they have a natural inclination to become their most whole and balanced expression.

Atlas: That's beautiful.

Aurora: It is. And that's what makes this work so profound. You're not fighting against your feelings. You're collaborating with them. Remember Susan, the woman who struggled with receiving love?

Atlas: Oh, yeah. The one with the steel plate around her heart.

Aurora: Right.

Atlas: That was a powerful image.

Aurora: Exactly. She and Joe Shirley were able to map that feeling of resistance, and it literally showed up as a solid steel plate outside her body blocking anything from getting in.

Atlas: But it also makes so much sense. We talk about feeling closed off or guarded, but to actually see it represented as a physical barrier, it's like a whole new level of understanding.

Aurora: Right. And that's the power of psychotopology, it gives you this tangible way of interacting with your emotions that goes beyond words. So they started exploring what was behind that steel plate, and they discovered a layer of shame, the fear of being hurt or rejected.

Atlas: So it was like a defense mechanism, a way of protecting herself from getting hurt.

Aurora: Exactly. And this is where the transformation began. They didn't try to get rid of the shame, but instead they worked with its virtual material properties. They noticed that it felt heavy, dark, and constricted, so they started experimenting with making it lighter, brighter, and a more expansive.

Atlas: Wait. So they actually changed the feel of the shame. How is that even possible?

Aurora: It's a bit like using your imagination to reshape a lump of clay. You're not changing the fact that it's clay, but you're changing its form. In this case, they used visualization and focused attention to shift the qualities of the shame. As they did that, they noticed it started transforming into a feeling of receiving, an open and expansive energy that allowed love to flow freely.

Atlas: Woah. So they didn't get rid of the shame. They transformed it into something that actually supported her.

Aurora: Exactly. It became a source of strength and openness rather than a source of blockage. And as the shame shifted, that steel plate around her heart also started to change.

Atlas: I bet it did. I'm dying to know what happened next. Did it just disappear?

Aurora: Not quite, but it transformed into something she called Exquisite Safety. Instead of a hard impenetrable barrier, it became more like a grounding and protective energy that allowed her to be open to love without feeling vulnerable or exposed.

Atlas: So it became a healthy boundary rather than a wall. That's incredible. It really shows how powerful this approach can be.

Aurora: Right.

Joe: Alright. Well, that was a pretty good discussion about the moving process and the example of Susan. Next, we're gonna jump to another example, Louise. And Atlas and Aurora are going to use that as kind of a bridge to talking about some of the bigger picture perspectives that come with the possibilities of being able to map and move feeling states like this, some of the questions that open up, and some of the implications. So, enjoy.

Aurora: There is this incredible story about a woman named Louise who was struggling with this feeling she called Crumbling. It was, like, intense fear and insecurity, and it even started to mess with her health.

Atlas: Wow.

Aurora: Through psychotopology, she was able to map out what Crumbling felt like. She said it was this cold, brittle feeling in her chest that made her feel like she was falling apart, and then she started to change it. She imagined it getting warmer, softer, more fluid. And as she did that, something amazing happened. She was able to shift that crumbling feeling into a sense of core strength.

Atlas: Core strength. What did that feel like for her?

Aurora: She described it as a warm luminous energy radiating from her center. It gave her a feeling of stability and groundedness that she'd never experienced before.

Atlas: Wow. That's powerful. It sounds almost miraculous.

Aurora: It wasn't just in her head. It was physical too. As she transformed Crumbling, she started to feel more stable and strong both in her body and in her life. She said it felt like her whole being was shifting. Her posture got better.

Her chronic pain eased up, and she felt this surge of energy in life. It was like by changing how her feeling existed, she actually changed her physical self.

Atlas: Wow. That story really shows how the mind and body are connected in a way I never fully understood before.

Aurora: It's pretty amazing. Right? And it shows how powerful psychotopology can be. It can create real change, not just inside us, but in our everyday lives too.

Atlas: This is mind blowing. Like, we're just peeking into this whole new world of understanding.

Aurora: That's what makes it so exciting. It's challenging all these old ideas about emotions, about consciousness, even about what's real and what's not.

Atlas: Louise's story is incredible, and the idea that we can actually, like, reshape our feelings is pretty mind blowing. I mean, if we can change how we feel inside like this, what could that mean for how we experience the world outside?

Aurora: That's a big question. And it's a question that gets to the core of why psychotopology fieldwork is so revolutionary, I think. It's not just about healing ourselves. It's about making the world more conscious, more compassionate.

Atlas: Okay. I see where you're going with this.

Aurora: Yeah.

Atlas: But how does that actually work? How do these changes we make inside actually lead to changes in the real world?

Aurora: It's all about integration. Think of it like you've been working out in this emotional gym of psychotopology fieldwork. Right? You've reshaped a feeling, let's say, insecurity into confidence. Now you gotta bring that newfound strength into your everyday life.

Atlas: So it's not some quick fix, you're saying. It's about making these changes part of how you act and the choices you make.

Aurora: Exactly. It's about connecting the inner world with the outer world. Maybe you start small, like speaking up more in meetings or setting boundaries in a relationship. As you take these actions, you're reinforcing that new feeling, and slowly, it becomes a bigger part of who you are.

Atlas: And the source material really emphasizes having a supportive community during this integration process. Why is that so important?

Aurora: Because change, even good change, can be tough. Having people around you who get it, whether it's a therapist, friends, a spiritual group, it makes a world of difference. They can cheer you on, give you advice, and offer a safe space to share what you're going through.

Atlas: It makes sense. Having people who understand and support your journey makes those ups and downs easier to handle.

Aurora: Absolutely. And, you know, something that often comes up in psychotopology fieldwork is this idea that every feeling, even the tough ones, has a positive intention.

Atlas: That one's hard for me to grasp. Yeah. How can something like fear or anger be positive?

Aurora: It's about understanding that even those negative feelings are trying to help us in some way. Like, fear is there to keep us safe from danger. Anger might be signaling that someone's crossing a line.

Atlas: So instead of trying to squash these feelings or get rid of them, psychotopology teaches us to understand and work with them.

Aurora: Right. It's a bit like dealing with a scared kid. You wouldn't yell at them for being afraid, would you? You'd comfort them, make them feel safe. We can do the same with our own difficult feelings.

We get to know them, what they feel like, and then we ask, what are you trying to tell me? What do you need?

Atlas: That's like a whole new way of looking at things. It's like you're making friends with your feelings instead of fighting them.

Aurora: I like that. And when we do that, something really cool happens. The feeling often starts to change on its own. It might soften, become less intense, maybe even turn into a different feeling altogether.

Atlas: So it's not about forcing change. It's about creating the right environment for change to happen naturally.

Aurora: That's the heart of psychotopology fieldwork. It's gentle. It's exploratory, and it takes a lot of patience and being kind to yourself.

Atlas: You know, it seems like the facilitator's role in psychotopology fieldwork is pretty different from a traditional therapist.

Aurora: It is. The facilitator isn't there to analyze or interpret what the client's experiencing. They're there to guide the process, to ask the right questions, and to really listen and be present. It's about empowering the individual to explore their own inner world and discover their own path to healing and transformation.

Atlas: The source material mentions that people who've had these big shifts through fieldwork sometimes feel like they've woken up to a new reality. What's that about?

Aurora: Well, when someone has a breakthrough experience in psychotopology fieldwork, it can be like seeing the world for the first time. They might start to see things differently, feel more connected to themselves and others, and have a stronger sense of purpose and meaning.

Atlas: It sounds almost like a spiritual awakening.

Aurora: It can feel that way, but it's important to remember that psychotopology fieldwork isn't a religion or spiritual practice on its own. It's a way to explore your inner world, and people from all walks of life can use it no matter what they believe.

Atlas: And we're just at the beginning of understanding psychotopology. Right? Yeah. There's still so much to discover about this whole hidden world of feelings.

Aurora: Absolutely. And that's what's so exciting about it. It's constantly evolving, and there's a real pioneering spirit among the people who are practicing and researching it. It's like we're mapping out a new territory of human consciousness.

Atlas: This is seriously mind blowing stuff. I feel like this is a game changer, not just for personal growth, but also for understanding the human mind in general.

Aurora: It really is. And it's all based on the idea that our subjective experience is not just some fuzzy intangible thing. It has a structure. It has properties. And we can actually interact with it in a way that's both profound and practical.

Joe: Okay. I hope you're getting a good picture from this with Louise's story and all the description of what this work leads to. We're gonna take a turn back into the science of psychotopology and particularly to unpack the underlying topology, the structure of modules and sets and constellations, not in great detail, but a 30,000 foot view of what gets revealed in this work.

Atlas: So we're not just talking about airy fairy spirituality here.

Aurora: Yeah.

Atlas: This is grounded in a new kind of science. Right?

Aurora: Exactly. One that takes subjective experience seriously and uses rigorous methods to explore and map the inner world.

Atlas: How is psychotopology pushing the boundaries of traditional science? How can something as personal and subjective as feelings be studied scientifically?

Aurora: That's a great question, and one that has puzzled scientists for centuries. You see, traditional science is great at studying things that we can measure objectively,

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: The physical world. But when it comes to inner experiences, like emotions, it kinda hits a wall.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: Like, how do you measure a feeling?

Atlas: Yeah. You can't exactly put joy under a microscope or dissect anger in a lab.

Aurora: Exactly. And that's what Joe Shirley calls the subjectivity barrier.

Atlas: Okay.

Aurora: The challenge of studying something that exists only in someone's internal world.

Atlas: So how does psychotopology overcome this barrier?

Aurora: By focusing on those virtual material properties that we've been talking about.

Atlas: OK.

Aurora: Even though they're not physical in the traditional sense, they can be described and mapped

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: With a level of detail that allows for a more objective analysis.

Atlas: So instead of just saying I feel anxious, I might describe it as like a, tight swirling sensation in my chest that's gray and cold. And that gives us something more concrete to work with.

Aurora: Precisely. By using a shared language and structured process, we can start to compare those descriptions across individuals. We can look for patterns, identify common elements, and even start to develop a taxonomy of feeling states.

Atlas: So even though my swirling gray cloud might look different from yours, we can both agree that it has certain properties.

Aurora: Right.

Atlas: Like size, shape, temperature, movement.

Aurora: Exactly.

Atlas: And that gives us a starting point for scientific investigation.

Aurora: Exactly. It's allowing us to study something that was previously considered too elusive and personal to be measured or analyzed in a rigorous way.

Atlas: It's like we're finally developing a scientific language for the soul. But if everyone's inner world is unique, how can we draw general conclusions or develop universal principles?

Aurora: That's where the idea of a universal modular architecture comes in. Through his research, Joe Shirley has found that there seems to be a common, underlying structure to our inner world. Imagine it like a honeycomb, a network of interconnected chambers with each chamber housing a different aspect of our being.

Atlas: So like a chamber for creativity, a chamber for fear, a chamber for love, each with its own unique feeling signature.

Aurora: Exactly. And these chambers or modules aren’t isolated. They're constantly influencing and interacting with each other. So for example, if your creativity module is activated, it might trigger feelings of joy or even confidence.

Atlas: It's like a chain reaction of positive emotions.

Aurora: Right. And the fascinating thing is that this modular architecture seems to be universal, meaning we all share the same basic structure.

Atlas: Okay.

Aurora: Even though the specific content of those modules will vary from person to person based on our unique experiences.

Atlas: So my creativity module might look completely different from yours, but we both have one. It's like having the same blueprint for a house, but everyone decorates it differently.

Aurora: That's a great analogy.

Atlas: So let's talk about one of those profound ideas, the constellations. You mentioned them earlier. What are they exactly?

Aurora: A constellation is a dynamic system of interconnected feeling states that govern a specific area of our lives. Think of it like a mini universe within our inner world.

Atlas: Mhmm.

Aurora: A cluster of feeling states that work together to create our experiences and shape our reality in that area.

Atlas: So So it's like a team of feeling states all working together to create a specific pattern or outcome in our lives. Could you give me an example?

Aurora: Absolutely. Let's say someone is struggling with a pattern of procrastination.

Atlas: Okay.

Aurora: Through fieldwork, they might discover that this pattern is governed by a constellation of feeling states, including fear of failure, overwhelm, perfectionism, and a need for control.

Atlas: I can see how those feeling states would all contribute to procrastination.

Aurora: Yeah.

Atlas: It's like they're feeding off each other creating a vicious cycle.

Aurora: Exactly. And by mapping and moving those individual feeling states within the constellation, that person can transform the entire pattern and unlock a whole new level of productivity and flow.

Atlas: So it's not about tackling procrastination directly. It's about addressing the underlying constellation of feelings that are driving that behavior. That makes so much sense.

Aurora: It's a more holistic approach, and this is where a psychotopology gets really exciting. It's not just about treating symptoms. It's about understanding and transforming the root causes of our experiences.

Atlas: It's like we're peeling back the layers of the onion, getting to the core of what's really going on. I'm starting to see how this could be a game changer, not just for personal growth, but for understanding the human experience as a whole.

Aurora: It really does have that potential. Imagine a world where we all understand these inner dynamics,

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: Where we learn to navigate our constellations, where we can help each other transform those limiting patterns and unlock our full potential.

Atlas: That's a vision I can get behind. Okay. So how do we even begin to identify these complex systems within ourselves? Do we just stumble on them through fieldwork?

Aurora: It starts with the same process of fieldwork mapping that we've been discussing.

Atlas: Okay.

Aurora: But as you map individual feeling states, pay attention to any connections or relationships that emerge. You might notice that certain feeling states tend to appear together

Atlas: Mhmm.

Aurora: Or that one feeling state seems to trigger another.

Atlas: So it's like we're detectives piecing together clues to uncover those hidden networks within our inner world.

Aurora: You got it. And as you map more and more feeling states, those constellations will naturally begin to reveal themselves. You might start to see recurring patterns like a constellation that governs your relationships, another that shapes your work life, and so on.

Atlas: It's an ongoing process of discovery, of paying attention to those interconnections and patterns. This is blowing my mind wide open.

Aurora: The inner world is so vast and intricate. It's truly fascinating. And remember, constellations are dynamic. They can shift and change over time as we grow and evolve. The key is to stay curious.

Keep exploring those inner landscapes and trust your own intuition.

Atlas: It sounds like a lifelong journey of self discovery and transformation.

Aurora: It truly is. And that's what makes psychotopology so exciting. It's not just a set of techniques. It's a way of life, a commitment to exploring the infinite depths of our inner world.

Joe: Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. So in this next section, we're gonna get a little philosophical. We're going to explore the question of free will. And in this new world where we can actually interact with our feeling experience so deliberately, what does that mean about the question of our agency?

Atlas: But we've also been dancing around this question of free will the whole time.

Aurora: Right.

Atlas: If we can change how we feel this precisely, does that mean we're totally in control of our choices?

Aurora: That's a big one.

Atlas: It is.

Aurora: Does psychotopology have anything to say about that?

Atlas: I think it offers a more nuanced perspective. It seems to suggest that we might not have complete control over what feelings pop up in the first place.

Aurora: Mhmm.

Atlas: But we do have the power to choose how we respond to them.

Aurora: Okay.

Atlas: How we work with them.

Aurora: So it's not about eliminating negative emotions completely.

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: It's about learning how to transform them into something we can actually use.

Atlas: Exactly. Okay. It's about recognizing that all emotions, even the painful ones, are part of the human experience.

Atlas: Mhmm.

Atlas: And maybe by learning to work with them in a more skillful way,

Aurora: Right.

Atlas: We can create more harmony both within ourselves and in the world around us.

Aurora: But this whole conversation has got me thinking…

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: If we can map and understand feelings in this way, it's not just about individual growth.

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: Right?

Atlas: It's not.

Aurora: There are bigger implications here.

Atlas: Absolutely. Right. And one of the really exciting things about psychotopology is that it's not just focused on individual feelings.

Aurora: Okay.

Atlas: By mapping the inner experience of lots of different people.

Aurora: Mhmm.

Atlas: They're starting to uncover universal patterns in consciousness itself.

Aurora: So it's like they're creating a map of the fundamental structure of how we feel.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: How our inner world is built.

Atlas: Exactly.

Aurora: That's amazing.

Atlas: And the more we understand those patterns,

Aurora: Uh-huh.

Atlas: The more we understand about things like creativity, intuition,

Aurora: Mhmm.

Atlas: Even the nature of consciousness itself.

Aurora: Woah. That's getting pretty deep.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: But I have to ask.

Atlas: Sure.

Aurora: If everything is interconnected like this, where do I even begin?

Atlas: Okay.

Aurora: Does psychotopology have anything to say about that?

Atlas: It's a big question. And I don't think psychotopology claims to have all the answers. But it does offer some interesting clues. One of the things Joe emphasizes in his writing is this idea that we're not just observers of our inner world. We're also active participants.

Aurora: So it's not just about sitting back and watching our feelings come and go.

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: It's about actively shaping them, interacting with them.

Atlas: Right. He uses the term radical curiosity to describe the attitude that's needed for this kind of exploration.

Aurora: Okay.

Atlas: It's about being open to whatever arises, even the uncomfortable stuff.

Aurora: Yeah.

Atlas: And being willing to experiment with different ways of working with those feelings.

Aurora: It's almost like we're both the scientist and the experiment at the same time. We're observing and we're also creating.

Atlas: That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And that brings us back to the question of free will.

Aurora: Right.

Atlas: If we can learn to work with our feelings in this way to transform them into something more resourceful

Joe: Mhmm.

Atlas: Does that mean we're truly the authors of our own experience?

Aurora: I'm not sure if there's an easy answer, but I think psychotopology is at least suggesting that we have more agency than we might realize.

Atlas: I agree. It's not about denying that our feelings have a powerful influence on us, but it's also saying that we don't have to be victims of our emotions.

Aurora: Mhmm.

Atlas: We can learn to understand them. Right. To work with them and to ultimately choose how we want to respond.

Aurora: So maybe it's not about free will in the sense of having complete control over everything.

Atlas: Right.

Aurora: But more about having the freedom to choose how we relate to our experience to shape our own inner world.

Atlas: I think that's a really insightful way to think about it. And, you know, one of the things that really struck me in Joe's writing is this idea that by understanding our own inner world, we can also start to understand the world around us in a new way.

Aurora: What do you mean?

Atlas: Well, if our feelings are constantly shaping our perceptions and our actions, then that means we're all interacting with the world through this lens of our own inner experience.

Aurora: Right.

Atlas: And if we can learn to shift that lens to see things from a different perspective, it could have a ripple effect on everything around us.

Aurora: So it's not just about personal growth.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: It's about creating a different kind of world.

Atlas: Exactly.

Atlas: Yeah. Imagine a world where people were more skilled at working with their emotions, where they could communicate more effectively, where they could resolve conflicts peacefully.

Aurora: It sounds pretty utopian, but honestly, after diving into this whole psychotopology thing, I'm starting to think it might actually be possible.

Atlas: I think so too. And, you know, one of the things Joe talks about is the importance of compassion in this whole process.

Aurora: Okay.

Atlas: Compassion for ourselves, for our own struggles, and also compassion for others.

Aurora: Because we're all in this together. Right? We're all navigating this complex inner world.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: Trying to make sense of our feelings and find our way.

Atlas: Absolutely. And the more we can understand and appreciate that shared humanity, the more we can connect with each other and create a world that reflects those values.

Joe: Wow. That was quite an excursion. And in our next section, we're going to dig in a little bit about just — practically speaking — how to take advantage of this work for yourself and what that might look like.

Atlas: The source material talks about picking a specific focus for exploration in fieldwork. It seems like there are endless possibilities. What are some common themes that people might want to explore?

Aurora: It really depends on the individual and their needs and what they're looking for. Some people might choose to work with a specific feeling, like anxiety or anger. Others might focus on a particular behavior pattern, like procrastinating or self sabotage, And some might be drawn to broader themes like finding purpose, meaning, or connection.

Atlas: So it's very personalized approach then.

Aurora: Yes. Exactly. And that's one of the strengths of psychotopology fieldwork. It gives people the freedom to tailor their exploration to what they need and what they want to achieve.

Atlas: But is this something anyone can do, or does it require, like, years of training?

Aurora: That's a great question, and it's important to be realistic. Fieldwork does require a certain level of what we call witness awareness.

Atlas: Witness awareness. What does that mean?

Aurora: It's the ability to observe your inner experience without getting swept away by it, like a scientist observing a specimen under a microscope.

Atlas: So you're not just reacting to your feelings. You're able to step back and see them more objectively.

Aurora: Exactly. And this allows you to work with your feeling states in a more conscious and intentional way.

Atlas: Okay. So it takes practice, but it sounds like the potential benefits are huge.

Aurora: Absolutely.

Atlas: Are there any risks involved in doing this kind of work?

Aurora: It's true that fieldwork can be challenging, especially when you're dealing with deeply rooted patterns. It's important to be patient and compassionate with yourself and to seek guidance from an experienced facilitator if needed.

Atlas: So it's not something to just jump into without any support?

Aurora: It's always best to proceed with caution, especially when exploring the deeper layers of your inner world. But with the right guidance and a willingness to learn fieldwork, it can be an incredibly transformative journey.

Atlas: Okay. I'm really intrigued by the different ways people can engage in psychotopology fieldwork — working with a facilitator, with a partner, and even going solo. What are the pros and cons of each approach? So let's break down these different ways to explore.

Working with a facilitator, a partner, or even going solo. What are the pros and cons of each?

Aurora: Yeah. That's a great place to start as you dive deeper into this.

Atlas: Okay. Let's start with working with a facilitator. What are the advantages there?

Aurora: A facilitator can be super helpful. They can kinda walk you through it, ask you the right questions, and help you handle any bumps in the road.

Atlas: So it's like having a guide, like a Sherpa, leading you through the tricky parts of your inner world.

Aurora: I love that analogy. It's spot on. A good facilitator creates this safe and supportive space, so you can really explore without feeling lost or overwhelmed.

Atlas: But I imagine there might be some downsides too. What are those?

Aurora: Well, the biggest one is probably finding a facilitator. It's a pretty new field, so finding someone qualified might be tough. And depending on their fees, it could get expensive too.

Atlas: Now that makes sense. So what about working with a partner? What's unique about that approach?

Aurora: Working with a partner can be a really powerful way to explore. It's more intimate, more collaborative. You take turns guiding each other, which helps you both understand the practice better, and it can really strengthen your connection.

Atlas: That sounds amazing. But I'm guessing there's some things to watch out for.

Aurora: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Choosing the right partner is key. You need someone open minded, supportive, and truly committed to the process. And you both need to be good communicators and willing to be vulnerable with each other.

Atlas: So it's not something to jump into lightly. You need a solid foundation of trust.

Aurora: Exactly. Trust and communication are essential for a successful psychotopology fieldwork journey with a partner.

Atlas: Got it. Okay. So what about going solo? What are the advantages and challenges there?

Aurora: Going solo gives you a lot of flexibility and freedom. You can go at your own pace and explore whatever feels most important to you.

Atlas: That sounds empowering, but I bet it takes a lot of self discipline, staying focused and motivated without someone else there.

Aurora: It does. Going solo takes a lot of self awareness, discipline, and a willingness to face your inner world head on without a guide.

Atlas: The source material really emphasizes taking detailed notes when working solo. Why is that so important?

Aurora: Those notes, they're like your map, your record of your journey. They help you see how far you've come, spot patterns, and stay focused on what you're trying to achieve.

Atlas: So it's like keeping a journal of your inner discoveries.

Aurora: Exactly. Detailed notes are essential, especially when you're exploring your inner world on your own. They help ground you and integrate your experiences.

Atlas: This all sounds amazing, but I can't help but wonder, how does this connect to other approaches to personal growth or even therapy? Is psychotopology meant to replace those or work alongside them?

Aurora: That's a really important question and one that Joe Shirley himself emphasizes. Psychotopology isn't meant to replace existing modalities. It's more like adding another dimension to them.

Atlas: Okay. So it's like another tool in the toolbox.

Aurora: Exactly. Imagine therapists being able to help their clients not just talk about their feelings, but actually map and move them, or spiritual teachers using fieldwork to guide students to deeper levels of self awareness and connection.

Atlas: Wow. I can see how this could be a game changer in so many fields. It really does feel like a whole new frontier of human understanding is opening up.

Aurora: And the most exciting part is that we're still just scratching the surface of what's possible with this new science.

Joe: I love the enthusiasm of these two, it cracks me up. So next section, we are gonna take a look at, once you map and move stuff, what does the integration process look like? And we'll revisit the story of Susan and some more things.

Atlas: We've mapped our feelings. We've learned how to move them. But then how do we actually integrate these shifts into our everyday lives? It's not like we're living in a vacuum. Right?

Aurora: Yeah. You've hit on a really crucial point. Integrating these changes is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. You know, it's about bridging the gap between our inner world and our outer world.

Atlas: Okay. I'm following you.

Atlas: But how do we actually do that? Is there, like, a step by step process for integration, or is it more about just being mindful of these new feeling states?

Aurora: It's a bit of both. Joe Shirley uses this analogy of learning a new language. You know, we can memorize vocabulary. We can understand the grammar, but fluency comes from practice, from actually using the language in our daily lives.

Atlas: So we need to create opportunities to speak this new language of our feelings, to express these new states we've cultivated.

Aurora: Exactly. It's about making choices that align with these new feeling states even when it feels challenging or unfamiliar.

Atlas: Can you give me an example? I'm trying to picture what this looks like in real life.

Aurora: Let's go back to Susan, the woman who transformed that steel plate of No! into Infinite Love.

Atlas: Oh, yeah. She was the one who was blocking herself from receiving love. Right? How did she integrate that shift?

Aurora: Well, before doing this work, she would push love away, fearing the pain of potential loss. But once she experienced that feeling of Infinite Love, she started to make different choices. She began to open herself up to receiving love even when it felt scary.

Atlas: So it's not just about the feeling itself. It's about how that feeling then informs our actions in the world. We have to act in ways that support these new feeling states.

Aurora: Precisely. Integration is about aligning our thoughts, behaviors, and even our relationships with the new possibilities we've discovered within ourselves.

Atlas: That makes sense. Yeah. But it also sounds like ongoing work. It's not like we do fieldwork once, and then everything's magically fixed. Right?

Aurora: Mhmm. Right. It's a process, and it takes commitment. Just like maintaining physical fitness requires regular exercise, maintaining emotional fitness requires ongoing attention and effort. We have to keep practicing this new language so it becomes second nature.

Atlas: So what can we do to support this process? Are there specific practices or tools that can help with integration?

Aurora: There are many. It could be as simple as journaling about your experiences or creating a visual representation of your inner landscape, or you might find that practices like mindfulness or meditation help you stay connected to these new feeling states.

Atlas: And what about connecting with others? Can other people support us in this process?

Aurora: Absolutely. Sharing your experiences with trusted friends, family members, or even a therapist can be incredibly valuable. And imagine communities forming around these principles, groups of people who understand and support each other's virtual materiality.

Atlas: That would be amazing. A world where we're not just tolerating each other's feelings, but actually appreciating the unique landscapes within each of us.

Aurora: It's a beautiful vision, isn't it? And I believe it's a vision that psychotopology can help us create. Because when we understand that our feelings have this tangible quality, it changes how we relate to ourselves and to each other.

Joe: Yes, it does. Well, that pretty much wraps up their conversation. These two, Atlas and Aurora, I gave them those names. Again, they don't get it all quite right, but it's pretty interesting listening to this conversation of two outsiders peeking in to what I'm revealing through the articles that I'm writing, what I've discovered, and responding in a way that's more or less connected to how I anticipate or hope other people will respond.

So we have one more section left which is just kind of a wrap-up looking at what's next for psychotopology, what kind of resources are there to help you do fieldwork, and leaving you with a pretty good open ended question to wrap things up.

Atlas: So what's the next frontier for this new science of subjective experience? Where do we go from here?

Aurora: Ah! The possibilities are endless. Psychotopology is still in its early stages, but it has the potential to revolutionize the way we understand ourselves, how we approach therapy and personal growth, and even how we design our education systems.

Atlas: I'm already seeing so many potential applications. Imagine if we could teach kids how to map and navigate their emotional worlds from a young age. What a difference that could make in their lives.

Aurora: Exactly. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Psychotopology could also be applied to fields like, leadership development, conflict resolution, even creative arts. Imagine a world where we can consciously cultivate those feeling states that support innovation, collaboration, and empathy.

Atlas: It's like unlocking a whole new dimension of human potential. Yeah. This has been such an eye opening deep dive. I feel like I've been given a glimpse into the future of human consciousness. It really does feel like a whole new frontier of human understanding is opening up.

Aurora: And the most exciting part is that we're still just scratching the surface of what's possible with this new science.

Atlas: Now before we wrap up, are there any additional resources or tools that can help listeners in their fieldwork journeys? I know you mentioned Joe Shirley's Substack.

Aurora: Yeah. His Substack Frontiers of Psychotopology is a fantastic resource. He offers in-depth articles, practical exercises, guided meditations, and even online courses to support people in learning and applying this work.

Atlas: Wonderful. I'll definitely be checking those out. Are there any other resources you recommend?

Aurora: I'd also recommend exploring other modalities that complement psychotopology, like mindfulness practices, somatic experiencing, and energy work. These practices can help us deepen our awareness of our bodies, emotions, and energy systems, creating a more holistic approach to transformation.

Atlas: It's all about finding the practices that resonate with us and support our unique journey.

Aurora: Exactly. And remember the most important resource is your own inner wisdom. Trust your intuition, honor your own pace and process, and allow yourself to be guided by the innate intelligence within you.

Atlas: Thank you for that reminder. It's so empowering to know that we have everything we need within ourselves to embark on this journey of transformation.

Aurora: Absolutely. And as you continue to explore this fascinating new science, remember to approach it with curiosity, compassion, and a sense of wonder. After all, we're dealing with the most precious and powerful force in the universe, the human heart.

Atlas: This has been an absolutely incredible journey. But before we go, I wanna leave our listeners with a question.

Aurora: I love a good question.

Atlas: Thinking back to Susan's experience makes me wonder. ==Could the very feelings we try so hard to avoid or push away actually be protecting something precious inside of us? Something that if we approach it with curiosity and compassion might lead to incredible growth and self discovery.== (48:30)

Aurora: That's a beautiful question and one I encourage everyone listening to really sit with. Maybe those difficult feelings aren't the enemy.

Atlas: Yeah.

Aurora: Maybe they're actually guides pointing us toward a deeper truth about ourselves.

Atlas: So to everyone listening, I say, embrace your feelings. Yeah. Explore them, map them out, and see where they lead you.

Aurora: You might be amazed by what you discover.

Atlas: And who knows? You might even uncover a whole new dimension of reality within yourself.

Aurora: That's the exciting part.

Atlas: Thanks for joining us, everyone. Until next time. Happy mapping.

Joe: Well, it's a wrap. Ay! I have to admit that the first time I tried this experiment and ran my articles and information into this AI machine that creates a podcast, I was kind of blown away. In a way that was pretty emotional for me. Actually hearing two people that had — you know, two people quote-unquote — hearing two voices that were behaving as if they were people looking in at what I've been creating, and talking about it in a way that is, parallel or similar to the way that people who get a lot of attention talk, the podcasters of the world.

It kind of… I haven't had that experience. And having this artificial experience of it made me realize just how much I'm longing for that. I am longing for the time when this work does get seen, does get recognized, is considered valuable and where people are jumping in to take it up and do what they are meant to do with it, which is to take it in all kinds of different directions.

And so I wanna leave you just with a request of how how might you help me do that? How might you help me make this connection with real human beings rather than these artificial constructions of voice, and create real dialogues with people who are in a position to dig in and to take this work places where it's meant to go.

That's it. I hope you enjoyed this. And please let me know in comments or in direct communications what you took from this, what you think of it, and what's next for you in this possible journey with psychotopology and with what is emerging here? Thanks.